While being upset that I have no real way to verify which John Carr is mine, the thought has often hit me that I should just research all of them to eliminate them.
I first started doing this when I listed every John Carr born in the UK from 1840 to 1850. I did this when I was an undergraduate at BYU. I don’t think I still have that list and it never really gave me anything to work from because it was just a list taken from an index. So there were no real details about the family ties there.
But during a long walk, I was pondering the realities of the Irish potato famine, emigration and people named John Carr. Even with Liverpool playing a large role in the Irish migration, I keep coming back to the thought that I could possibly track all the Carr families.
If nothing else, I can simply narrow down the options.
How to approach this – try to track down all the John Carr’s I found that were able bodied seamen? I could at least try to learn more about using maritime records in genealogical research.
Should I use passenger/arrival lists along the Eastern US seaboard to track all John Carr’s?
Or perhaps use US Census records? Find all the John Carr’s and connect them to their origins with the hopes of finding a connection.
Or I could use UK census records to determine which Liverpool or Irish Carr families had a John Carr that left versus those that stayed?
All good ideas.
But now for the NEXT TWIST – dated 10/4/2022 – Ancestry.com updated their DNA results and now, the Irish in our line is listed as back down to 1%.
So after trying to use those DNA results to help screen and direct my research, I am back to a multitude of John Carrs!
FIRST EFFORT
The John Carr’s of the Colorado census 1885
There are 10 people named John Carr in Colorado in 1885. There is a chance one of them could be our John Carr – especially when you consider that immigration dates range from 1860 to 1883.
But, of course, that doesn’t mean he’s in Colorado.
One of the reasons I believe he might be in Colorado already is because Josephine marries him relatively quickly after her husband dies. (John Wyatt dies in January 1887 and Josephine marries John Carr in December 1887).
Only 3 of the John Carr’s in 1885 Colorado list their origins as either Ireland or England. So that narrows the list of candidates significantly.
Another sign that one of these could be our man – none of them show up on the 1900 Colorado census. (We know our John had moved to Utah by then.)
However, based on what we know, John would have been between 37 and 40 years old in 1885. And single. I doubt he could have passed for 23 or 24.
| Name |
Location |
Age |
Single/ Married |
Job |
Birthplace |
Father birthplace |
Mother birthplace |
| John C Carr |
El Paso, CO |
44 |
Married |
Traveler |
England |
England |
England |
| John Carr |
Gilpin, CO |
24 |
Single |
Miner |
Ireland |
Ireland |
Ireland |
| John Karr |
Clear Creek, CO |
23 |
Single |
Expressman |
Ireland |
Ireland |
Ireland |
The John Carr’s of the Colorado census 1880
Of the three John’s identified above, none seems to match the John Carr’s on the 1880 Census. Below are the 5 total John Carr’s in Colorado during the 1880 Colorado Federal census and only 1 lists Ireland as his birthplace.
Again, considering his estimated age of 32 to 35, none of these folks seem to be a likely match. (Even considering that in 1900, he is listed as 5 years younger than what we believe he was.)
| Name |
Location |
Age |
Single/ Married |
Job |
Birthplace |
Father birthplace |
Mother birthplace |
| John Carr |
Pueblo, CO |
22 |
Single |
Works on RR |
Ireland |
Ireland |
Ireland |
| John Carr |
South Pueblo, CO |
30 |
Single |
Fireman |
Missouri |
Missouri |
Missouri |
| John Carr |
Denver, CO |
9 |
Single |
Attends school |
Illinois |
Maine |
Connecticut |
| John Carr |
Denver, CO |
46 |
Single |
|
Pennsylvania |
Ireland |
Ireland |
| John M Carr |
Boulder, CO |
18 |
Single |
Attends school |
Colorado |
Ohio |
Iowa |
Another element to document – in a lecture on tracing Irish immigrants, a professional researcher share the following:
Ages vary widely among the Irish, such as in the Irish censuses and in the ages of immigrants, so we cannot rely on ages or birth dates. Don’t be surprised if birth dates vary by up to 10 years between sources.
Doesn’t that sound familiar?
Also,
It was not uncommon for the Irish to use more than one given name in the course of their lives. The use of Latin in church registers further complicates matters.
Next – if John Carr WAS in the US already in 1880, but he HADN’T made it to Colorado, where would he be?
No real way to know the answer to that. We could search for other mining communities since that seems to be his profession. But family stories also talk about being at sea. So do we limit ourselves to the coast?
Also, with such a variety of immigration dates AND birth dates to use as filters, how do we properly narrow down the list?
My research into John Carr’s outside of Colorado on the 1880 Federal Census is limited to those people identifying themselves as from England or Ireland. That seems to be the criteria that I feel satisfies everything we know about his life.
Let’s hope that list isn’t outrageous…
1880 CENSUS Search
Starting with 68 John Carr’s – minus Corry and other “similar” spellings, you end up with only 39 individuals (4,111, including similar spellings when you don’t filter for born in England)
Please note that none of the John Carr’s in this list of 39 live in Colorado. None of the John Carr’s in Colorado show their birthplace as England.
| NAME |
PARENTS OR SPOUSE |
LOCATION |
AGE |
OTHER |
| John Carr |
George and Mary |
Wallingford CT |
9 |
all born in England |
|
sp. Lavenia & kids |
Salt Lake City, UT |
31 |
all born in England |
|
sp. Mercy + kids |
Springfield, MA |
35 |
all born in England |
|
Geroge & Annie |
Woodbury, CT |
9 |
all born in England |
|
sp. Martha & kids |
Grafton, WV |
51 |
mother b. Ireland |
|
widower |
Delavan, IL |
73 |
all born in England |
|
w/kids |
Milnesville, PA |
27 |
all born in England |
|
sp. Martha |
Wilkins, PA |
32 |
all born in England |
|
Richard & Jane |
Chicago, IL |
5 |
all born in England |
|
Edward & Ann |
Providence, RI |
16 |
parents b. Ireland |
|
sp. Jane & kids |
Lowell, MI |
81 |
all born in England |
| John E. |
sp. Mary & kids |
Leavenworth, KS |
40 |
all born in England |
|
sp. Briget & kids |
New Hartford, NY |
48 |
all born in England |
|
sp. Cathrine & kids |
Seneca, NY |
61 |
all born in England |
|
sp. Lizzie |
Barton, MD |
23 |
F. Ire; M. Eng |
|
|
Lawrence, MA |
19 |
parents Scotland |
|
stepmom Julia |
La Grange, NY |
35 |
all born in England |
|
John & Margaret |
NYC |
17 |
parents b. Ireland |
|
md. |
Newark, NJ |
28 |
all born in England |
|
sp. Grace |
Neptune NJ |
60 |
all born in England |
|
sp. Jennie |
Paterson, NJ |
50 |
all born in England |
|
sp. Elizabath |
East Saginaw, MI |
50 |
all born in England |
|
|
Waukesha, WI |
19 |
all born in England |
|
mother Bridget |
Taunton, MA |
17 |
parents b. Ireland |
|
sp. Hannah |
Middletown, NY |
45 |
all born in England |
|
|
Scranton, PA |
15 |
all born in England |
|
md. |
Lawrence, MA |
27 |
all born in England |
|
sp. Jane & kids |
Wyoming, PA |
35 |
b. England |
|
|
Carrollton, MD |
20 |
parents b. Ireland |
| John S. |
sp. Mary & kids |
Brooklyn, NY |
52 |
all born in England |
|
sp. Ann & kids |
Westmoreland, NY |
64 |
all born in England |
|
sp. Ann & kids |
Pelham, NH |
61 |
all born in England |
|
sp. Mariah |
Northshade, MI |
50 |
all born in England |
|
md. |
Custer, Dakota |
30 |
parents Scotland |
|
sp. Mary & kids |
Hughestown, PA |
44 |
all born in England |
| John Morgan |
sp. Jane & kids |
Bridgeport, PA |
28 |
all born in England |
|
|
Union Rock, WI |
62 |
all born in England |
| Jno. |
|
Pittsburgh, PA |
25 |
all born in England |
From this list, do any people stand out?
I wondered about the John Carr in the Dakota territory – but he lists his parents from Scotland and that is not part of our story.
Perhaps some of the single men could be leads. But I estimate that our ancestor would be been between 32 and 35 years old. And all the single candidates in this list are either 15 or 19. That seems like a significant gap.
Based on this exercise, the immigration dates of 1860, 1861 or 1878 seem less likely. While John could be missing on the census simply due to his profession – which could lead to him living in a very remote area – or even simply because of misspellings or other errors, the fact that there are so few single men that match the simple criteria of having parents born in England (maybe Ireland) leads me to believe that we won’t find our ancestor in the US prior to 1880.
1851 UK Census – John as a child?
Also, it hit me that finding John as a child in England (1851, 1861 census) might be an option. He wouldn’t be the person providing the info. But is the church record we have accurate? Are those his parents? Is he from Hull then and not Liverpool?
In an exercise to see what I’m up against, I ran a search for John Carr in the 1851 UK Census. I targeted people 3 – 6 years old, but the search included a bit more than that. I narrowed the list down to anyone with John or Edwin or even an abbreviated E in their first name. That leaves me with 277 options.
Narrowing it down to people either living in or born in Liverpool only (9) or Hull only (3) versus in Lancashire (45) or Yorkshire (60). Interesting note – Liverpool has 2 John’s born in Ireland.
Another note – there was only one father named Christopher in any of the entries (all 277) and the spouse was not Ann. So if the parents’ info isn’t accurate, is the birthplace of Hull even worth considering? And knowing Josephine’s info about her husband doesn’t ever seem to be accurate, how likely is it for Liverpool to be accurate?
LIVERPOOL RESULTS – 1851 UK Census
| NAME |
PARENTS |
BIRTHYEAR |
BIRTHPLACE |
RELATION TO HEAD OF HOUSEHOLD |
|
|
FOUND IN 1861 CENSUS |
RULED OUT? Y/N |
| John Carr |
William,
Ann |
abt 1850 |
Liverpool, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
N |
N |
| John Carr |
John,
Ann |
abt 1851 |
Liverpool, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
|
abt 1847 |
Lancashire, England |
Nephew |
|
|
N |
N |
| John Carr |
James,
Ellen |
abt 1847 |
Lpool, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
N |
N |
| John Carr |
Thomas |
abt 1847 |
Liverpool |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
Hiram,
Margaret |
abt 1849 |
Liverpool |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
William,
Mary |
abt 1844 |
St Helens, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
Peter,
Mary |
abt 1850 |
Ireland |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
John,
Bridget |
abt 1843 |
Ireland |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
1851 UK Census – more – Lancashire Carr’s
| NAME |
PARENTS |
BIRTHYEAR |
BIRTHPLACE |
RELATION TO HEAD OF HOUSEHOLD |
|
|
FOUND IN 1861 CENSUS |
RULED OUT? Y/N |
| John Carr |
John,
Anna |
abt 1850 |
Manchester, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Power |
David,
Ellen |
abt 1848 |
Gt Harwood, Lancashire, England |
Son |
Great Harwood, Lancashire
|
|
N |
N |
| John Carr |
John,
Anne Maria |
abt 1846 |
Manchester, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
N |
N |
| John Carr |
William,
Ann |
abt 1850 |
Liverpool, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
N |
N |
| John B Carr |
John,
Rachel |
abt 1848 |
Wigan, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
John,
Ann |
abt 1851 |
Liverpool, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
|
abt 1847 |
Lancashire, England |
Nephew |
|
|
N |
N |
| John Edward Carr |
John,
Ann |
abt 1850 |
Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
Sarah |
abt 1847 |
Hulme, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
N |
N |
| John Carr |
James,
Ellen |
abt 1847 |
Lpool, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
N |
N |
| John Carr |
William,
Sarah |
abt 1849 |
Golborne, Lancashire, England |
Son |
Newton in Makerfield, Lancashire
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
Andrew,
Eliza |
abt 1847 |
Manchester, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
James,
Ellen |
abt 1849 |
Manchester, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
Michael,
Cathrine |
abt 1849 |
Manchester, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
N |
N |
| John Carr |
Alexander,
Agnes |
abt 1849 |
Collyhurst, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
N |
N |
| John Carr |
Patrick, Ellen |
abt 1850 |
Warrington, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
N |
N |
| John Carr |
John, Ann |
abt 1850 |
Longton, Lancashire, England |
Grandson |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
|
abt 1845 |
Preston, Lancashire, England |
Coson |
Bowland Forest Higher Division, Lancashire
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carre |
|
abt 1848 |
Wigan, Lancashire, England |
Lodger |
|
|
— |
Y |
| John Carr |
Thomas,
Agnes |
abt 1850 |
Blackburn, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
John,
Mary |
abt 1850 |
Newton, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
N |
N |
| John Carr |
Thomas,
Elizabeth |
abt 1850 |
Little Bowland, Lancashire, England |
Son |
Little Bowland, Lancashire
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
Richard,
Jennet |
abt 1850 |
Much Hoole, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
Thomas,
Nancy |
abt 1850 |
Walton, Lancashire, England |
Son |
Walton le Dale, Lancashire
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
Thos,
Alice |
abt 1850 |
Bolton, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
Willm,
Mary |
abt 1850 |
Salford, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
N |
N |
| John Carr |
Richard,
Emma |
abt 1850 |
Prescot, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
Margaret |
abt 1845 |
H Norris, Lancashire, England |
Grandson |
Heaton Norris, Lancashire
|
|
Y |
N |
| John James Carr |
John,
Mary |
abt 1847 |
Pendleton, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
John,
Elizabeth |
abt 1851 |
Bolton, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
Michal,
Elizabeth |
abt 1845 |
Manchester, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
Thomas |
abt 1847 |
Liverpool |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
Hiram,
Margaret |
abt 1849 |
Liverpool |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
William,
Mary |
abt 1844 |
St Helens, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
William,
Alice |
abt 1844 |
Over Wyresdale, Lancashire, England |
Son |
Over Wyresdale, Lancashire
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
John,
Mary |
abt 1844 |
Stalybridge, Lancashire, England |
Son |
Ashton under Lyne, Lancashire
|
|
Y |
N |
| John A Carr |
John,
James |
abt 1843 |
Salford, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
N |
N |
| John Karr |
Edward,
Jane |
abt 1844 |
Much Woolton, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| Jno Carr |
Rand,
Eleanor |
abt 1845 |
Manchester, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
N |
N |
| John Gore |
Richard,
Alice |
abt 1848 |
West Derby, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
N |
Y |
| John Carr |
Edward, Elizth |
abt 1847 |
|
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
Peter,
Mary |
abt 1850 |
Ireland |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
John,
Bridget |
abt 1843 |
Ireland |
Son |
|
|
Y |
N |
| John Carr |
Charles,
Mary |
abt 1844 |
Ireland |
Son |
|
|
N |
N |
| John Core |
Henry,
Sarah |
abt 1843 |
Manchester, Lancashire, England |
Son |
|
|
— |
Y |
You’ll notice that only 3 entries are shown as eliminated from consideration.
Next, I moved to trying to find these families on Ancestry.com to see if more research might already have been done which would include info that would eliminate even more.
And, indeed, based on finding these suspects with other records that would directly conflict with my John Carr’s 1887 marriage date, I eliminated 10 more suspects.
This leaves 32 suspects from the 1851 census. I haven’t considered whether there are any John Carr’s on the 1861 census that would ADD to this total. Hm.
Other places to look?
After a consultation with someone at the Family History Library as part of RootsTech 2022, the idea that Josephine’s family may have had some connection with John from Pennsylvania was suggested.
Also, where were the other large mining communities of this time period? Could he have worked at a mine near Josephine’s home in Pennsylvania? Would that have helped them make the quick connection they did?